Posts by paul from cleveland

128

The upside of atheism

by paul from cleveland in

i realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.

however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.

i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).

paul from cleveland

This is because you do not understand atheism.

Exactly!

I'm not asking about the validity of theism or atheism. Let me put it another way. Let's say you're right. There is no God. No one really loves me because love is just a "a neuro-chemical part of our survival mechanism". There is really nothing to look forward to except old age then eternal death. No hope of anything more. Basically "Life sucks and then you die". How am I supposed to feel good about that? Is it supposed to bring me peace because it's "true"? It might also be true that I have an inoperable brain tumor but knowing that truth doesn't make me happy. I'm just saying that I don't get it. If it's true how are we supposed to feel happy about it? What perspective can I have about it that can bring me peace?

128

The upside of atheism

by paul from cleveland in

i realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.

however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.

i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).

paul from cleveland

your feelings, as important as they are, have nothing to do with a logical argument.

I've had logical arguments made to me that are pretty convincing both ways. Both for atheism and theism. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I can see both points of view. I was just more or less curious as to what is it about atheism that people find comforting. So many people say that atheism "set them free" in a sense. I'm just trying to understand why that is. It seems so cold to me. I'm just hoping that it's not true.

I'm not using my feelings as any kind of proof for anyone else. Agnostic Theism is just my intuition, not a provable fact of course. Just like Agnostic Atheism ,I believe, is an intuition. Gnostic Atheism, however, is another story. Is anyone here a Gnostic Atheist?

128

The upside of atheism

by paul from cleveland in

i realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.

however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.

i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).

paul from cleveland

Do you consider it a matter of faith that the Invisible Pink Unicorn on Pluto does not exist?

Please read my previous post (toward the bottom of page 4) as to why the "santa claus" argument is nonsensical to me.

What you call "love" is a neuro-chemical part of our survival mechanism.

Are you saying that you don't believe that anyone loves you?

128

The upside of atheism

by paul from cleveland in

i realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.

however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.

i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).

paul from cleveland

Also, my intent isn't to try to convince anyone of anything. Whatever anyone is comfortable believing is fine with me. My initial question was just asking what the "good part" of atheism is. I didn't understand it but I have a much better idea now.

128

The upside of atheism

by paul from cleveland in

i realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.

however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.

i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).

paul from cleveland

But it is quite a leap from "Momma loves me" to "There's an invisible man in the sky, and he loves me too."

There isn't, and he doesn't.

The fact that love exists at all in this cold dark universe, even if it were just from my parents, is miraculous in itself. Don't you agree? This love lets me leave the door open to the possibility of a loving God. However, convincing arguments can be made either way. I think we just see what we want to see. It's possible that our mental filters just reject any evidence that contradicts our desired notion (including mine, of course).

128

The upside of atheism

by paul from cleveland in

i realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.

however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.

i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).

paul from cleveland

get back to me on that "love" thing.

I don't think there is anything that could convince me that my parents don't love me.

If your wife and parents are claiming they love you, and they are giving evidence of it in the way the behave, it's a good bet they love you.

They way that people behave is not proof. For example, my wife could just be a "gold digger" acting like she loves me. To follow the "santa claus" line of reasoning, nobody loves me... since there's no proof that love exists. (by the way, I don't have a wife... just using that as an example)

128

The upside of atheism

by paul from cleveland in

i realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.

however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.

i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).

paul from cleveland

Let me explain why the "santa claus" argument is nonsensical to me. Let's just apply it to a non-emotionally charged issue. Something we all believe in, even without proof. That is the love others have for us. The true motives of others can never be proven yet we all believe that someone in this god-forsaken world loves us, don't we? For example, I believe my parents love me but I can't prove it. I would even go so far as to say I know my parents love me. Would it be reasonable to say "I don't believe anyone loves me because I can't prove that love exists"? If I said "my wife loves me" would you say "no she doesn't because you can't prove that love exists therefore she doesn't... in fact, Paul, if you believe anyone loves you you may as well believe in the easter bunny!"? Of course not. So the "santa claus" argument doesn't convince me that my beliefs are false, rather, they indicate the biases of the person saying them. For example, if my friend had a bad relationship with his wife, I can sympathize with why he might not believe that my wife has love for me... but I won't believe him based on that. So, the way I see it, we all believe in the existence of something for which there is no proof. By one definition "God is Love" so, in one sense, we all already believe in God. If Love exists, and God is love, then God exists. That's all the proof I need.

128

The upside of atheism

by paul from cleveland in

i realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.

however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.

i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).

paul from cleveland

Please don't hijack the thread. I'm making good progress in figuring things out for myself. (I've got to go to work now, I'll be back later.)

128

The upside of atheism

by paul from cleveland in

i realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.

however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.

i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).

paul from cleveland

Many atheists don't believe in god in much the same way you don't believe in ghosts or the tooth fairy or santa claus. Do you think it is intellectually honest to say that since I cannot prove that santa doesn't exist I should say I don't know? The complete lack of any evidence for a fairy tale is considered sufficient to dismiss it, why not the fairy tale of theism too?

That's just a "straw man" argument. I mean Einstein was a theist (along the lines of Spinoza's ideas) so it's not a totally irrational position to me.

I think most Atheists would certainly be open to the possiblity of such a being if evidence were to emmerge.

That seems like a reasonable position.

128

The upside of atheism

by paul from cleveland in

i realize whether you believe in god or the non-existence of god it has to be taken on faith since both positions are unknowable and unprovable.

however, i can understand faith in god as basically a hope for something better.

i can also understand agnosticism; admitting it's unknowable but still leaving the door open (perhaps the only intellectually honest option).

paul from cleveland

my belief is that there is 'probably no god'

It's impossible to prove for certain, without any doubt

So far, no one who has posted has claimed to be a Gnostic atheist so that really makes us all some form of Agnostics. (according to HintofLimes chart on the first page of this thread)

People that believe that there is no God, or that believe that God is wicked and destructive and therefore should not be obeyed, tend to act without regard for God. Without God, they answer only to society and themselves. When they answer to themselves and society instead of a "higher cause", they tend to make better (and usually quicker) decisions. And, if they make a bad decision, they can reverse it more quickly without having to appeal to some Almighty God that is only going to confuse them even worse.

This comment relates to peoples actions. I'm not wondering about that. I'm wondering why it's not more appealing to just admit "I don't know" and leave the door cracked just a little bit. (since we're all some form of Agnostic anyway) Some form of hope for the possibility of something better rather than the belief that all that awaits us is old age, death, and the grave. Gone forever.